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“If you go in the way of survivalism, you will kill, steal, destroy to get what you want. We are not animals, we are more than that.”

I’d be happy to hear him clarify what he meant here. To be clear, it sounds to me like he’s accusing me of being a thief and a killer and also calling me an animal.

That last part isn’t so bad because I believe I am an animal. There are lions and bears, mice and lobsters. So too are there homo sapiens.

I only partly agree about conflict. I disagree with violent conflict and the forcing of one upon another, but do you also disagree with political debate?

P.S. If he’s talking about killing animals, not humans, I suppose cattle ranchers are killers too? And I swear I’ve never stolen an acorn from a squirrel.

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I have no place in anything related to politics. I’m no politician.

I believe that he was generalizing when he said about survivalism.

I wasn’t suggesting you were a politician, just asking whether you agree or disagree with politicians debating one another, knowing they will not change their opponents mind?

“War has rules, mud wrestling has rules - politics has no rules.” -Ross Perot

:smile:

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If you had done enough research you would know that numerous historians (including Voltaire) have questioned the data and stories of Bartolome de las Casas, as the figures do not hold up and he exaggerated it all to benefit his cause.

I did not question this so as not to extend a discussion with a fanatic who is not worth the time.
I have nothing more to say.

They suggest exaggeration, but does anyone suggest there were no attrocities?

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And you still publish them as real events when they have been questioned and certainly disproved.
Wake up, atrocities happened everywhere and by everyone in the past.

Who is questioning the reliability of these accounts? Natives or Europeans?

I have seen no evidence that the accounts in that book have been disproved. Source?

P.S. I agree that attrocities have happened everywhere, but mentioning the Mongols in what is now modern day India does nothing to tell of the history between native people in the Americas and Europeans.

I think there’s a difference between trolling and standing up for yourself after others have resorted to name-calling and labelling you to ward off their own cognitive dissonance. Debate is yet another entity separate from trolling and defending yourself. Generally I find that when a person is licked in debate, that’s when the name calling starts. Insult the person’s character. Get everyone else to hate them as much as you do (general you), all because you (again, general) don’t want to admit that your debate opponent proved their point and you didn’t. Editing to add: Not necessarily pointing fingers, though I have seen elements of this in these threads.

In reference to the granting of human rights after genocide… I doubt whether the same people who capture and enslave other humans have any way of knowing what full human rights actually are. I would suspect the granting of human rights had more to do with politics than any feelings of remorse, and I would question, are those really rights or just less severe massacres?

When it comes to the granting of human rights the real question here is, I think, are American Indians better off today than they were before the European invasion and this is a complicated issue with no clear answer.

To explain my position here I’ll need to explore uncharted history. Being as how no one knows what was going on during pre-history this can only be my opinion that I have based off of my readings on the subject. It’s important to note here that American Indian history has been passed down by word of mouth, not written.

From what I’ve read, during the time before European arrival, and during western expantion, American Indian tribes and nations varied in terms of their social and governmental structures. Some tribes were under complete anarchy in terms of governance, really just groups of like minded people living and hunting together and sharing religious ideology.

Other tribes had democratic type structures that could be called matriarchal in that women held what might be considered the highest position, but were themselves elected by a congregation of men who were, themselves, elected by the individual clans that made up the tribe.

The closest to western civilization would likely have been the Iriquois which was actually an alliance of tribes, not one of which had or sought greater influence over the others. Previously the tribes that made up the Iriquois warred with one another frequently, but came together in peace after someone they call The Great Peacemaker united them. Some believe the Great Peacemaker was born of a virgin which is an interesting side note.

One of the reasons western civilization had such trouble making deals with the American Indians was that none of the tribes had any single figure that could make decisions for the whole tribe or nation. None of the American Indian tribes had law enforcement, such a thing simply wasn’t necessary as “crime” was virtually unheard of.

Crimes against women in American Indian tribes were especially rare. It’s not that men and women were considered equal, but that there was never any question about the equivalence of their benefit to the tribe so it wasn’t necessary to explicitly state their equality, it was just assumed.

When western powers tried to negotiate with American Indian tribes they would invite their spiritual leaders, chiefs, to the negotiating table and make a deal. The problem was that the chiefs didn’t speak for everyone in the tribe, people made their own decisions and the chief only gave trusted advice that people accepted or rejected on an individual and per instance basis.

So, are American Indians better off today? Well they have access to more advanced technology, sure, but crime has skyrocketed. Again, though, that doesn’t fully answer the question.

American Indian tribes are a good representation of what life was like at the transition between the mesolithic and neolithic periods in human history. Civilization was in its early stages here and I believe, and there’s no difinitive answer here, that the level of crime, acceptance and peacefulness that existed in American Indian tribes also existed for the rest of humanity when they first embarked on their journey through civilization.

While considerably more peaceful than their western counterparts, American Indian tribes still waged war with one another. I see signs in these tribes that, left on their own, would ultimately have developed along the same path as their western brothers and sisters.

Left alone it is unlikely they would have advanced to that point by today, but eventually they’d have made it to where we are today and therefore not be any better off. So they might, technically, have been better off today without western intervention, but would, nonetheless, ultimately become saturated with crime, hatred, intolerance and total war somewhere down the line.