Discussion about F-Droid contribution to Mobifree

I was looking though the F-droid news and I discovered this very concerning post.

In short, F-droid wants to first make it easier for developers to post to Google play. And two, F-droid wants to add forced payments, subscriptions and ads. I am kind of shocked to hear this as F-droid historically has sided with the user and software freedom. I find it hard to believe that F-droid would want to support Google and Apple.

If the issue is getting more apps on F-droid then I think this is still going to accomplish nothing. Nobody is going to flock to F-droid with this move. You shouldn’t force exponential growth as that creates short term success not long term success. What is worse is that this complicates the F-droid process even more. Adding an entirely new tool to the mix is just going to increase complexity. If F-droid wants to make it easy for developers and users to port apps then they must document the requirements and have very clear inclusion criteria. I think the core values need to stay the same including prohibiting any non free code and requiring antifeature labels if needed. I also think F-droid could benefit from some more CLI tools to tell users and developers where they need to change the code in order to remove dependence on Google libraries. It could be simukar to tooling such as shellcheck but free software and privacy focused instead.

As for developer funding, I don’t think this is an issue F-droid should become a Google play like clone. It feels out of scope and the solutions they are proposing are frankly not something I would expect out of F-droid. F-droid should take user freedom seriously and that includes things like allowing the user full control over the app. In order for mandatory payments to work you would need to block the user in software. Furthermore, unless F-droid is prepared to accept cash I can’t see how such payments would be private. Services such as Stripe are totally proprietary and invasive. Also, it is unclear to me how the money would be divided up as many projects have community contributors with dependence on libraries. With that being said there are a few problems with each monetary method as well.

I think one time payments could end up hurting income not helping it. Many people don’t change devices that much so you would be limiting income. Instead of allowing users to donate as they see fit you would be changing the mindset. I also don’t think preventing app installs is good for user freedom as I explained above.

Additionally, I think subscriptions come with there own set of issues. More often than not we see subscriptions turn into a method to milk users who can’t switch to alternative software. It becomes very hostile quickly and ultimately leads no where good. Also the price is forced so people can’t just pay what they can afford. You would be locking out those in financial hardship. I think monthly payments should be optional. (More on that later)

The last thing I want to talk about is the ads. I think ads are very bad for several reasons. First off, they require data collection to work. You are analyzed for weaknesses and then the computer tries to get you to buy something based on it capturing all your data. Imagine you are someone with an addiction problem. I am not going to specify what kind of addiction but it doesn’t need to be drug related. It is really hard to give up something if all you see is ads for that thing. Advertisers can smell your weakness and attack. Also, advertising is bad for democracy as it allows for targeting of very specific groups of people. You can give different narratives to each person and create unrest. You also can create anger which leads to violence. Multiple countries have been using advertising to sway public option in either at home or abroad. As an example, Israel used advertising to try to boost support and therefore funding for Israel.

With that being said, I think there is a way forward. I have already talked about improving the build system but I think F-droid can foster development as well. Donations are the answer and they can be very effective. For instance, look at the following examples:

I think F-droid should not be processing payments under any circumstances. F-droid is not a payment processor and there is a huge amount of risk with flowing money. Instead, F-droid should continue offering a optional donation link in the app page. Additionally, if a developer is looking for funding they could offer guidance and create a community post with links to struggling projects. If a developer is unsure whether F-droid is worth it they could create a dedicated “go fund me” like page where a specific amount of money would need to be raised before an app is published on F-droid. Also, if an developer is looking for money they could simply create a popup on first launch. It worked very well for Thunderbird. Another option is that F-droid could add some sort of tag called “looking for funding” which would cause the app to emphasize the donation link with a message. They also could maintain a community fund designed to support developers in financial hardship. (Similar to how Linus Torvalds donated money to kernel developers during Covid-19)

One other idea I had was to create an F-droid grant. Essentially users and donors would pay into a grant fund. If someone in the community wants to get payed for some work they could submit an application. It would work just like a standard grant and it would encourage the greater community to get involved. Even if it isn’t the original app developer there still could be payment for work. (With approval of the app author of course though something that resembles a bug bounty)

Example: https://www.outreachy.org/ (It doesn’t necessarily need to target underrepresented groups)

In short, I am not happy with the direction F-droid is going. Donations and transparency are the answer, not forced payments and Google integrations.

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I read and reread the F-droid news article about Mobifree and do not see anywhere that it states that any changes are coming to F-droid itself. The article discusses the features needed in a tool to submit Android software to multiple app stores. In order for such a tool to be useful to most developers, it needs to be able to accommodate the feature set of each app store. This needs to include the features of those app stores that accommodate various payment and advertising methods.

Nowhere in the article does it state that F-droid itself is planning on adopting those features. Although, it would be good if the article stated that explicitly.

The main question to F-Droid developers is why are they willing to waste so much effort on something that benefits the big tech first of all. Let’s be honest, majority of developers deploy non-libre software, they are not going to publish anything to F-Droid. In addition to that, small app stores won’t benefit much from this effort either, as they lack the marketing budget and are not pre-installed on devices as Google Play Store and App Store are. I believe that most F-Droid users wouldn’t want to have F-Droid’s brand and image to be associated in any way with this shady initiative, as well as the misuse of F-Droid grants and collective funds.

It is possible I misunderstood but it sounds like F-droid wants to add more tooling that doesn’t necessary benefit F-droid directly. I personally think that is a little out of scope. If they want to have unofficial support for some automation and external that is fine but I personally don’t think it is wise to assume all developers want a iOS app or a Google play app. Some do and some don’t. We don’t need to complicate the tooling.

From a payment method perspective there is plenty of evidence to support my assumption. For instance,

we need to consider how to streamline the payment processes as well

a solution that includes a pay-to-download option for developers who are uploading their apps to multiple app stores simultaneously, integrating with payment gateways like PayPal or Stripe can provide a straightforward approach to handle transactions externally

to streamline the payment and licensing key distribution process, developers can leverage providers that offer unified APIs

in-app payments include an SDK which is built into the APK file

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If they want to actually raise money for development they should create a separate project with separate funds. That way if things go south due mismanagement or disagreements it is not part of core F-droid. I think having bug bounties or similar could help the community quite a bit.

Also I think they could grow the forms and create a support network for foss android development. They also could make some tutorials on how to create a libre Hello World app with more modern tools such as VScodium and containers (For reproducible builds that are easy to setup)

While I personally do not care for a tool that can submit to multiple app stores, there clearly are those that do (including many open source projects that are on Play only and not on F-droid - owing to the effort of submitting to multiple stores). All the quotes fit more easily into the idea of creating such a tool than modifying F-droid itself.

fake news

lies

Wow, so much written… you are really lost in translation. :crying_cat_face:

TL;DR of the post is: F-Droid being a “DIY app store” allows everyone the freedom to make their own, as they see fit, and to include the apps that the want, funded as they need. The F-Droid repo continues to be FLOSS-only as we want.

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I probably read into it a bit much. However, the blog post kinda scared me as there really isn’t any alternatives to F-droid.

An alternative to F-Droid is Obtanium, however it offeres none of the assurances that the main F-Droid repo does on the provinance of the software.