Here’s how I see it: the words are given force by the context in which they exist. Insulting poc, women, etc, for being what they are is inherently damaging because we live in a world where we’re still trying to undo the damage from back when they literally weren’t considered people
Insulting white men just for being white men is not something I agree with but it’s not going to push us away from an equitable world in the same way, hence, not bigotry
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Did I say “agreeing with a Nazi” anywhere?
No, I said “agreeing with Nazi talking points”. As in, the hate and bigotry that that group is founded upon.
And your repeated attempts to dodge or change the question have told more than any direct answer would have.
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Yeah, pretty much. Do you guys even read yourselves?
Leaving that aside:
Okay. Counting you, that’s already THREE different people on this thread who think that insulting certain groups for their race and/or sex is not bigotry, and is fair game.
But please, do correct me if this is a strawman and that’s not what you think.
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I get the feeling this thread is gonna get locked down again simply because Nazis keep twisting people’s words and trying to argue that reverse racism is real despite every shred of evidence proving them wrong.
And I’m betting that the repeated lockdown for this reason will help to actually get this feature implemented since the sheer number of undue attacks on it have proven why it’s necessary in the first place.
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“agrees with Nazis” is not the same words as “agrees with a specific person who happens to also be a Nazi”.
They do not have even remotely the same meaning.
Please continue to dig this hole for yourself. It’s amusing to watch.
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certain =/= privileged
Until you willingly make that distinction yourself, none of us can agree with this statement as you have put it forth.
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I mean, if we’re gonna mince words really really hard I think it’s exactly one group, the one group that had all the rights that everyone else had to kick and scream and fight to get. But otherwise yes, that isn’t a strawman
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Guys, I’m giving you every chance to correct me if I’m straw-manning you.
You guys think that insulting certain groups for their race and/or sex is not bigotry, and is fair game. I’m not judging you, I’m just saying that’s what you think.
But again, please, please correct me if this is a strawman and that’s not what you think.
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You are certainly straw-manning and being corrected, and your lack of an ability to admit that those replies even exist shows that you are also gaslighting in addition to spouting pro-Nazi talking points.
Thank you, once again, for demonstrating why this feature is needed.
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You’ve given us every chance to correct you, but you ignore every time we have corrected you in favor of continually pushing oppressive Nazi talking points.
There’s a clear difference in the way you’re framing the problem and the actual problem itself. So stop the gaslighting.
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Here’s the issue as I see it:
- You want to add a “promotes bigotry” scarlet letter to apps whose developers do not sufficiently agree with your viewpoints, knowing full well that no one will be able to agree on the meaning of “promotes” or “bigotry” in this context;
- You have provided zero evidence beyond your own assertions that the developers of these apps are “bigots” or have a “stance” that is “clearly pro-Nazism,” and when questioned on this, you fall back on rhetoric and continue to provide no evidence backing your statements;
- Given that plenty of people who - surprise! - aren’t Nazis, Nazi-adjacent, or even culturally conservative, do not agree with your assessment that the apps you name “promote bigotry,” it follows that the only ethical way to apply such a flag to any given app is to create some sort of committee which takes public comment into account;
- It is plainly obvious that the existence of any such committee will engender a great deal of rancorous debate, and will thus take a considerable amount of time and energy away from the actual purpose of this project, which is to provide an app store from which people can download apps;
- Even if any of this were a good idea, you are asking this of a project which, all due respect to the maintainers for the wonderful work they do, barely had the resources to keep the servers consistently available just a couple short months ago, and which is clearly shorthanded.
Spelled out thus, the answer seems clear to me as an F-Droid user: thanks, but no thanks.
Branding apps with flags which amount to distilled cultural commentary is not a good choice for a general-purpose app store. Worse, to do so would be a seriously unwise use of the very limited human resources dedicated to sustaining F-Droid.
If you want to have a purity inquest every time a developer does something you don’t like, it would be a much better use of your energy to build your own app store and do it there. If you can successfully convince enough developers to stock it and enough people to use it, maybe then it will be time to revisit the question of how useful and appropriate this idea is. Until then: no thanks.
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Let’s go for another recap then:
So according to you, insulting one particular group for their race and/or sex is not bigotry and is fair game… as long as it’s the right one!
And according to you, insulting certain groups for their race and/or sex is not bigotry and is fair game… as long as they’re the right ones!
Your buddy here just told me I’m not, but please correct me then. Is it fair game to insult white men on the basis of their race and sex?
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I would like you to answer the question I asked previously, especially because you liked so many of the posts from people who have already given affirmative answers.
I’m not sure what forum you’re reading, but it’s definitely not the same one I’m reading.
When a woman tells you something, are you even capable of reading what they wrote?
If you would like me to add Nazis to my list of “approved groups”, please file a formal request.
To answer your question: yeah, I think I am. Now could you answer me?
Is it fair game to insult white men on the basis of their race and sex?
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We’ve been over this, so please re-read everything that’s been said so far. Fedilab and Librem Social’s devs have explicitly stated that they’re not going to block Nazis (aka free speech absolutists). I’ve pointed out how speech does have physical effects and therefore hate speech does constitute physical abuse. Therefore, the implicit support of Nazis constitutes bigotry, regardless of whether or not they want to admit it.
Asking bigots to define bigotry is like asking Hitler to define justice. Of course they’re gonna make up a definition that’s favorable to them. As such, the Paradox of Tolerance provides a clear ruleset to follow: If you’re responding to hated, you’re okay. If your hatred is the starting link in the chain or otherwise in support of said starting link, you’re the problem. Fedilab and Librem Social have both proven to be supportive of the starting link (Nazis who want us dead), and therefore are deserving of this label.
As someone who doesn’t want to die or otherwise be constantly harassed by Nazis for daring to try to make my own spaces safe from such harassment, I undoubtedly want this feature so that I know who poses a danger to me and who doesn’t.
None of this is hyperbole or “talking points”. It’s pure fact, easily verifiable in any Google search of government statistic of hate crimes.
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There will be no antifeature promotes bigotry, this doesn’t make any sense. But see below.
F-Droid cannot and will not rate political or ethical attitudes of developers. While I do not believe that these don’t matter at all, this project is absolutely not the right place to do this. I’m afraid people will have to do their own research here.
While an antifeature doesn’t make sense, we do need to overhaul our inclusion guidelines. This means besides the requirement for fully free software, we need to think about what will not be tolerated inside the f-droid.org repository. This is not an easy thing to do and still a work in progress.
When we are done with that there will be people who won’t agree with our guidelines. BUT contrary to google play and apple F-Droid is inherently decentralized. People who want to run repositories with different inclusion criteria have all the tools to do so.
About Fedilab. As I stated earlier, we don’t think it is promoting any bigotry and in conflict with any of the proposed inclusion guidelines.
And finally we’ll have to lock this topic again. This discussion got way out of hand without providing any new arguments. We’ll review the thread again and delete any inappropriate comments.
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