Stop.
It’s clear who you are affiliated with. You don’t need to make it any clearer.
I would support the addition of this anti-feature. This matters vastly more to me as a user than, say, the promotion of non-free network services. I care about software freedom, but I care more about human freedom from harassment and threats. If you’re more willing to stand up for the former than the latter, perhaps you should re-evaluate your priorities.
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@naoh You can go away if you’re only here to use Nazi tactics in order to derail this discussion.
The facts are that Fedilab and Librem Social were both asked to curtail the harassment of marginalized groups and they both refused.
https://framagit.org/tom79/fedilab/issues/208
https://glitterkitten.co.uk/@sophia/102057200554713022
cryptids.online
https://social.libre.fi/notice/9iZw5AqQ5qKjgFWm5Q (images are missing, but some remote replies have cached versions)
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I think we need to take a break here. We have heard arguments in favor and arguments against the anti-feature proposed in the first post. This is an important topic, but it gets shifted more and more towards insults. Therefore, this topic will be closed for 24 hours for everybody to cool down.
Please restrain from creating a new topic to continue on this topic. For any questions or comments, please send a message to @moderators.
This topic was automatically opened after 26 hours.
I don’t think that antifeature makes sense. It should be applied to every Mastodon apps and browsers.
Also, I don’t get in what the app promotes bigotry? The app can be used for different social networks with different instances. The app has an instance hard-coded which is peertube.social, in that case, I agree that the app promotes this instance but only this one.
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I’m going to share one last thing. It’s the full context for my opinion on Gab, including why I came to the conclusion that it should not be blocked by client apps.
You can read it here: https://blog.alexgleason.me/gab-block/
I’m sure many of you will still disagree with me, and that is fine. I am not asking for anything. I’m just sharing this story in the hope that some people may get something out of it. I do think it’s relevant to the topic at hand.
If you have feedback for me that is not related to the topic at hand, feel free to send me a direct message.
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Awesome blog article. Hope you don’t mind I tooted it on Mastodon.
Mastodon just like Facebook, Twitter and pretty much all social media sites are ran by ultra liberal leftist. If you don’t agree with them you are a racist nazi.
I was hoping Mastodon and other federated media wasn’t going to be the same but unfortunately they are. I moved to librem.one after being banned from two other instances. I will probably make an account on Gab soon.
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It has already been explained to you many times what the problem with Fedilab is. It seems like you are just trying to ignore the actual issue, which is your decision to revert the Gab block. Trying to frame this as a discussion about default instances is really shameful, and I really don’t like how you are bringing my instance (peertube.social) into this.
As I have already explained many times too, I was scared to see my application banned from the store since several people warned me.
My mistake had been to act too fast, otherwise I would never have brought this block.
Sorry for mentioning peertube.social but it’s a fact, this is the only instance hard-coded inside the app.
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I’ve got to disagree.
- it’s a really thin line to censorship
- people can still block them
- it’ll take too much time and bikeshedding to dissolve such cases of whether or not an app is labeled with this tag and when it will be removed again.
I think we really have other issues that will enhance f-droid much better. - F-Droid will have a really bad time getting involved in the problems of others.
If anything I’d personally just remove anything from this project to avoid further confrontation and tears, saving my time for others. They clearly have arguments that should not be fought on the shoulders of others. I think it’s already too much that we’re having such arguments over here.
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To further clarify this:
F-Droid should be driven by the use of free Apps. F-Droid already has few manpower [1]. We’ve all seen projects getting involved in such cases of discrimination, censorship etc. And I’m pretty sure we’ve all avoided these projects and conversations, waiting for the people to calm down so you can start talking about the actual project again.
And exactly this will happen to f-droid, we just can’t make sure to have the truth. Some will call it censorship, apps will get tagged for no reason. Some apps will be skipped by mistake. People will start avoiding f-droid entirely as rumors about false positives and negatives in a ban system for hatespeech spreads. (Yes we clearly reached the level of twitter & youtube, except that we ask Mozilla to keep a blocklist.)
I will be the first one to start searching for a project that is able to stay technical and focus on its core functionality should we really start messing with such mud-throwing contests.
Anyone here that is seemingly able to invest enough time that we have now ~28 Messages here is a missing manpower for the project.
I think @Bubu covered the key point pretty well already.
[1] Yes I’m also to be blamed.
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No one is suggesting to do any kind of censorship. The request was only to add an “antifeature” for apps that support bigotry. Everyone can still install the apps, but users will be warned and cant choose a different app instead.
This is censorship.
You add a negative flag that’s on-par with ads, user tracking & co and we also have the nice “hide anti-features” switch.
Do you really expect people to read about what exactly this means, whether or not they are ok with that, whether that matches their description of this word ? We’ve clearly seen that the name “bigotry” is already a hot topic. So we’re at paternalism. And from there it’s not that much of a jump to exclusion of such projects. This is modern witch-hunt, running to other projects and telling them to blacklist things that could be used in a bad way.
Please take this war to your own communities and leave us alone, thanks.
I will disable further notifications.
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@craigevil Twitter and Facebook aren’t run by leftists or else I and many of the LGBTQ+ people on the Fediverse wouldn’t have been harassed off of Twitter by TERFs & privileged white boys. Please avoid spreading misinformation like that.
@stom I already went over this, so I’d appreciate it if you stopped conflating the issue. It’s not “what’s in the app” but “what the developers believe”. This is about ensuring marginalized groups feel welcome in the community. From filing bug reports to asking developers for help, we need to know that we’re not gonna be treated like crap just to please some white boy’s snowflakey feelings.
And to everyone else who keeps using slippery slope fallacies and “who decides?” excuses, I already explained that too. I suggest people actually read the conversation before replying.
Lastly, to anyone complaining about censorship, I’ll repeat what I said to the first person in this thread who claimed that: Explain to me how adding information (an antifeature) is actually removing information (censoring). If anyone can do that, I’ll close this without a second thought.
Here are my 2 cents on the subject, trying to be objective and put my own opinions aside :
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Following this thread, I see you insisting more and more that your opinions are based on what the DEVELOPER chose to do. Anti-features are not about what the DEVELOPER does. It is about what the TOOL he made actually does, and how it does it. Fdroid is not some kind of website where you rate people based on their actions. The expression “anti-feature” makes it clear. It is about features. How is a developer’s decision a feature of Fedilab ? Serious question, I don’t get it. At all.
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Lots of great things in this world have been made by lots of really bad people. Shitty things have been made by great people. I won’t list it now, because it concerns everything we use everyday. It goes both way.
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The decision to add an anti-feature to Fedilab, if applied, should be applied to every app that wouldn’t block Gab & others “nazi” instances. That would draw people away and encourage them to use other apps that do, which would have repercussions you naturally obfuscate because on your belief that it could effectively protect people from being harassed (which might not be the case. Source : the great history of our world, and how the denial of reality helped resolve it).
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“We don’t care.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you for admitting that the FOSS world is lacking in ethics and compassion. I’m hoping to work to transform it into one that does. I have plenty of coder friends who would enjoy working in the community at large, but are constantly pushed out by uncaring people like you.
This suggestion had proved to me just how badly my activism is needed, as so many replies to this have been of the “we don’t care” nature and have even been extremely harmful (hence the 24h lockdown earlier). I’d say the latter were from people who actually do care, but rather, they care about preserving the culture of hatred that exists in this community.
To everyone reading this: I’d be careful who you side with. I’m tired of my LGBTQ+ brethren getting kicked out of communities they have every right to be a part of. And history shows that those who support such discrimination are never the good guys. I’m here to change the culture to be more accepting, and the first step is holding developers accountable for their hatred and/or indifference towards said hatred.
Just as Google has their own Nazi problem, the FOSS community does too, and I’m here to clean it up. Tolerance of intolerance is never acceptable, so all of you claiming it should be are participating in the censorship of marginalized groups. Is making bigots face the consequences of their actions really worth silencing the numerous LGBTQ+ & even cis women that have been actively pushed out by said bigots? I think not. And I will continue to fight to allow the voices of those people to thrive. I will continue to fight to ensure technology is open and friendly to all except for the ones who “don’t care”. It’s up to you which side you want to be on, but fair warning: I do have history on my side.
Edit: @frandavid100 That’s because white men aren’t oppressed. Police will pull guns on unarmed black men, but they’ll attempt to talk down white men. LGBTQ+ people are fired and evicted every day for being LGBTQ+ but white men are not. White men often escape sentencing when raping women, or are otherwise jailed for maybe 5 years because they’re white. Black men get much, much longer sentences for the same crime. So don’t go whining about “reverse racism” because it’s not real. Y’all have everything in life handed to you, and often times fail upwards (Donald Trump), so you have no room to complain about us fighting to make sure a community is safe for us.
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Just to make sure everyone is on the same page:
- This topic is about adding a label to some apps.
- No app will be removed from the f-droid app list as a result of this.
- The actions of Fedilab and Librem Social are objective and not subject to debate.
- Drowning out the voices of LGBT people in this thread in order to sabotage an attempt to make a space safer and more transparent is an example of why we need this label.
- The two apps in question are both sending the message that they would rather be accessible to literal Nazis than stay a safe place for LGBT people. The features that would have protected LGBT people were intentionally removed when Nazis requested them to be.
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Why does it have to be about you or the communities you’re a part of ? It is all really about your idea of adding an anti-feature.
I think you misunderstood the “FOSS world” as you call it since the beginning. The idea of it is NOT to federate people under the same flag. It is actually quite the opposite, allowing them to freely take and alter the code to make it fit their needs, besides technical benefits like security by audit and easier community contributions.
You can’t call a community toxic or lacking ethics because they choose to let the actual users decide how they should use the provided tool.
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I’m not whining about reverse racism. I’m asking some questions about bigotry, which is the term you used, and sticking to your definition too.
So please, if you don’t mind, answer the questions. I’d really like to know what you think.
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Is it bigotry to insult white men just for being white men?
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Does an instance administrator support bigotry, either explicitly or implicitly, if they vow to allow that kind of content in their instance?
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Does Mastodon as a network support bigotry, either explicitly or implicitly, if the Covenant quietly lets that slide?
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Should we, therefore, add a “promotes bigotry” to Mastodon apps in general?
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